RhinoPower Ltd

TechSupport · Guru

RE: Suzuki Mini project

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

TechSupport wrote:
The Check Engine Light won't go out until the engine starts and runs above 400rpm or so.

Is this always the case or just when it had previously detected a problem?

TechSupport · Guru

The Check Engine Light won't go out until the engine starts and runs above 400rpm or so. I guess that everything that you've unplugged can be ruled out so its pointing towards the power circuits.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Ok so I have tested all the connectors terminals for continuity to the chassis earth and as would be expected there is 0 ohms resistance on A1, A14, and A13, and 13 ohms in B1 but that is the heated oxygen sensor and when I disconnect it we get no continuity from B1, B9 I get a reading of 43 ohms and I don't think this should be the case! If you can confirm that it is indeed wrong then I will go back and re check what I have put in place of the original ignition barrel, I think I over complicated it with relays anyway as I originally didn't clock that the starter motor came with its own relay attached and I got carried away with relays in place of the ignition barrel.

This not easy with a memory like mine lol it is like fault finding someone else's work! I cant remember what it is I did untill I figure it all out again, then I remember doing it. And I was getting (it wont let me put the word I mean but its a word for being over confident that relates to male chickens) and had started insulating bits of the loom so now I will have to strip all that off to change anything

Oh and the only other pin that registered on my multimeter was C14 at nearly 2k ohms I dont know if this is normal?

Plus I did as was suggested and unplugged the connectors on everything and that had an effect but it was only to reduce the ticking of the relays not to stop it all together and the check engine light was still lit

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Saturday 7th of November 2015 03:46:37 PM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

right so its cross your fingers and pray to your god's time then lol I will crack on with that tomorrow.

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Friday 6th of November 2015 07:52:11 PM

TechSupport · Guru

That's worth trying. The inputs are all pretty well protected so its most likely to be an output or a power connection. I can't say if the ECU is damaged, its possible but you may be OK.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

would it be an idea to remove the ecm connectors and one by one check the continuity to earth of each pin? I know some will be meant to go to earth but it may help to narrow down the circuit with the fault.

Also how much chance is there that this short will have damaged the euc (my worst fear)

TechSupport · Guru

The clicking and the main relay getting hot indicate that you have a short somewhere. I would suggest disconnecting as many parts as possible and see if it goes away, if it does then start reconnecting parts.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I have news on the project, unfortunately it is rather worrying. Having all but finished the wiring I decided to attach the ecm and battery to see what the check engine light had to say, the result was "it stays on constantly" with the ignition on and in fact the check engine light is earthed at all times if the battery is connected but is not earthed when I disconnect it again. At the very moment the battery is connected there are several multiple clicks/ticks that go on for about 1-2 seconds then stop and seem to be coming from the relays, the relays (or the main relay at least) starts to get quite hot after a short time of the battery being connected and so I have disconnected it again. I am more than a little concerned and confused by this it was not the result I was hoping for, I wanted to use the diagnostics coupler to see what the ecm thought the problem was but as that would need the battery connected and I don't want to cook the relays so i'm not sure what my next move should be? I sincerely hope that in doing this I haven't just gone and cooked the ecm!!!

I await your most valued advice as to what the next move should be.

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Friday 6th of November 2015 02:56:37 PM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I just won a SPI mini fuel tank for a bargain price on ebay with the fuel pump and sender still attached smile . I do think it will be necessary to replace the pump itself with one rated for the swifts injection system. I am also toying with the idea of replacing the fuel line again as I think the stuff I put in last time is a bit cheap and rubbish.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

As I creep towards a test run I am rethinking some aspects of the build, namely the fuel tank and pump modifications made to try and make them suitable for my build. I have now decided I am not happy with them and am attempting to source a mini spi/mpi fuel tank to replace mine with. I think it will also be necessary to use a swift's fuel pump rather than a mini's so I am thinking of this...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUZUKI-SWIFT-1-3-GTI-GXI-IN-TANK-ELECTRIC-FUEL-PUMP-REPLACEMENT-UPGRADE-KIT-/171842474730?hash=item28029c12ea

and I will find a way of replacing the mini's spi/mpi pump in the tank with it.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

It just arrived thanks. It looks to me to be the right one.

TechSupport · Guru

I sent out the connector for the immobiliser today so you should get that tomorrow.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

With the exception of the "data" cable running to the immobiliser I believe I have run all the wires from the ECM to where they need to be, I am now working on the ignition, starter switch, power supply and fuses. I am using more relays than is absolutely necessary I know but I dont know how much current will be drawn or for that matter the rating of the switches i'm using, so I am using some 40A relays and am fairly confident no more than that will be drawn (the starter motor relay is 70A though.).

I'm still waiting to get hold of some bigger axle stands so I can get under the car and get to the starter motor so haven't sorted that out yet, and I must at some point buy a battery and some oil for the engine but that and wiring in the immobiliser would bring me within sight of a test run (of the engine at least.). But don't count on it, there is many a slip twixt cup and lip.

TechSupport · Guru

The two shielded wires will be the sensor output and ground, the other two will be for the heater. B1 is shown above as an unshielded white so the black will be the ground, assuming the colour scheme is the same for the sensor then the white will go to B12 and the black will go to B16. The sensor wire colours are given on this site:
www.gendan.co.uk/faq/o2_sensor_wires.php

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I have found an old post where that question was already answered, the white is blue and the black is white! simple :)

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

So having spent the last hour looking for the CAS sensor in all the wrong places I have finally located it in the very convenient location just behind the dizzy, and that is now sorted. Coming to do the o2 sensor I am slightly confused (again!). The diagram has the sensor wired with (W) to B1 (P/B) to B12 and Lg/B to B16, however the shielded cable I have (that has the right connector already on it so am assuming was doing this job originally) has a black wire and a white wire both unshielded that I guess are the white to B1 and the black to earth, and then two shielded wires one black and one white, further more the sensor itself has Black, Black, Blue and white running from its side of the connector? I am assuming that it does matter which way round it is wired!

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

TechSupport wrote:
The shielded cables are usually on the O2 and CAS sensor to improve noise immunity, make sure that they are only connected at one end, usually they are spliced to a ground wire at the ECU end.

-- Edited by TechSupport on Friday 11th of September 2015 06:54:40 PM

Ah ok I see, and now I can see it on the diagram (the broken lined box and the earth symbol.) I had wondered what that meant. Thanks.

TechSupport · Guru

Don't use a bi-directional Transil diode, use something like a 1N4002 general purpose 100V rectifier diode. The shielded cables are usually on the O2 and CAS sensor to improve noise immunity, make sure that they are only connected at one end, usually they are spliced to a ground wire at the ECU end.

The oil pressure switch just goes to the idiot light.

-- Edited by TechSupport on Friday 11th of September 2015 06:54:40 PM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Right ok so does that just attach straight to the pressure gauge/warning light on the dash? Back to the "diode pack" you mentioned before, not that it a problem or priority at the moment but would there be any issue with me making it up myself using, say these....http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201373740361?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

or ones similar?

And what was the deal with those shielded cables?

TechSupport · Guru

That's the oil pressure switch.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Your help is most appreciated! I would be all sorts of stuck without it, speaking of which today's enquiries are. I have finished dismantling the old loom and it has come to my attention that there are two pairs of wire that are shielded so I am guessing they carry a signal of some description and I also assume that I will need to fit similar cable which is fine but which wires is it that need shielding?

Secondly can you tell me what this is....

TechSupport · Guru

And I have no idea what the B/Bl refers to as that wire must surely be the W/Bl one?

That I'm sure is a mistake, on earlier ECUs that wire was black/blue, presumably they changed it because it was easily mistaken for blue/black. The two white/blue wires from the ECU are connected in the loom.

then on relay no.14 the wire seems to connect to the other B/W wires but is itself marked as W/Bl?

On page 6E1-54 the ISC is shown as being connected to the White/Blue wire however if the wire to the relay is actually Black/White then I would be inclined to connect it to that wire, earlier models used the White/Blue wire so I would guess that, again, the wiring diagram wasn't properly updated. Both wires are 12V power but one is permanent and the other is only live when the ignition switch is on.

Grounding strategies are an important part of automotive design. The body can be considered to be the absolute ground point. The grounds within the ECU ideally would be at the same voltage however the current flowing out of the ECU grounds to the body do so along wires that have a small resistance; these resistances mean that there is also a small voltage drop across the wires. Where you get higher powered devices like injectors and solenoids switching you get an ECU ground voltage that varies, this would affect the more sensitive parts of the circuitry and so they have there own ground wire to give them a more stable ground point within the ECU. Generally you have the power ground and a sensor ground, the power ground often has more than one wire to reduce the resistance between the ECU and the body.
If you consider the situation where you have strong external signals like mobile phone signals, power lines or local radar transmitters and then consider that the wiring in the vehicle acts like a lot of antenna then you don't want though those signals to get inside the ECU and affect its operation. The ECU has a 'boundary' which is primarily of bunch of capacitors connected to the pins that divert unwanted signals away from the internal circuitry, with a metal cased ECU those signals are directed through the case to the vehicle body, this is generally referred to as the 'RF ground'. It also prevents noise from within the ECU being transmitted out via the wiring and affecting other equipment.
When you see the different symbols they represent the different grounds but they are all connected to the vehicle body (the case should be bolted directly to the body). Don't be tempted to connect the wires together at the ECU.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Further to my last post there are is another thing that would be nice to have confirmed....

At the point in the green circle I am assuming a join of the wires (it is hard to tell if there is a black splodge there or not) but looking at the wires coming from the relay it joins a bunch of W/Bls not just one.

And I have no idea what the B/Bl refers to as that wire must surely be the W/Bl one? unless it is referring to the grounded wire running from device No.17 above, oh and on that subject I was most bewildered by the use of different ground/earth/-ve symbols. I am planning on having the mini as a -ve chassis so what do I need to do with all the wires? I can see on the pic on this post that A13 runs to the ground symbol and to the -ve end ot the battery so ground and -ve are the same but I looked up about the other symbol and the best i could figuer it is a "power ground" symbol, so what the hell is that all about?

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I think I have found a mistake in the wiring diagram for the ECM, or if not then I am totally confused and in need of help.....

I have highlighted in yellow the B/W wire running form C14 to various relays, then on relay no.14 the wire seems to connect to the other B/W wires but is itself marked as W/Bl? Looking at relay 14 in the flesh the wire coming from it is in fact B/W so it is my assumption that the diagram is wrong and the line should be terminating at the point inside the green circles and all the W/Bl wire is in fact meant to be B/W and should be joined to the other B/Ws?

I think I am right but would feel more comfortable having it confirmed!

P.S. is there a prize for spotting the mistakes in suzukis manuals? lol

TechSupport · Guru

The noise suppressor filters out the high voltage spikes from the low side of the coil, the signal out of the noise suppressor is used for the rev counter and in some ECUs for the 'Ignition fail Safe' signal that cuts fuel if there is no spark.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

A quick update and some more pictures of the (slow) progress.

here I have fitted the injector resistor and behind that the main fuses connected to both the battery (or the cable running to the back at least I dont have a battery yet) and to the altenator, you can also see in that picture the MAP sensor.

and here is the ignition coil and "noise suppressor" (whatever that is?) and you can see the bunch of purple wires that lead to the monitor coupler.

I have been trying really hard to get things right, I dread having to try and track down mistakes at a later date but, that does makes the going fairly slow as does soldering all the wire joines (I don't trust my crimpers.) But its ok I am quite enjoying it, it has been a while since I really got stuck into something and I love electrical soldering (smells great!). I will probably need to disconnect and reconnect some joins later in order to sleeve the cables but I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

its ok I have answered my own question, C11 go's to the immobiliser.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

So just to clarify then it will be ok to have nothing connected to C11 at all? not that you can see from the picture but it is the V/W wire that is absent from the coupler the other 4 wires are accounted for and then there's the black ground wire.

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Monday 7th of September 2015 06:57:52 PM

TechSupport · Guru

The Data Link Connector is under the dashboard usually, it will be a standard J1962 connector and it allows you to plug in a scan tool, the monitor coupler is usually fitted under the bonnet. The serial data link isn't usually connected to the monitor coupler, I don't think that there was ever an adapter for that for the Suzuki Scan Tool. If you look closely at that picture of the connector it shows that position unpopulated.
If A23 is the wire to the Check Engine Light then yes its grounded to turn on the light. If you don't have the diode block for the electric load signal then you could make one from three diodes, although it should be easy to source one. If you don't have any of those loads then it isn't required.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Also looking at A23 am I right in thinking that it(A23) becomes -ve to indicate problems? I ask this because it looks to me like it connects to the check engine light then to IG1 which (if I understand right) is +12v when the ignition is on but not cranking.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Im back! After a not so short break I have returned to the project and am now really trying to get my head around the wiring and electronic ignition system, so far I am set up in my new garage and have elected to build myself a new wiring loom from scratch using the remains of the old one for parts and clues.

This is where i'm at......

It looks a bit of a mess but I sort of know what's going on.

So far I have wired up most things down the left side of that diagram (I say that but most of it isnt used so I haven't had to do anything) I am currently looking at the bottom left corner (A32-C11) and C16 and have found this...

I realise this is a different ECM to mine but I guess it will be the same??

I am a little confused about C11 and the "data link connector" I have found this...

but my coupler looks like this

so I have one less wire on mine and I am guessing that its the "Data link connector" I have the V (A23), V/R (A22), V/Y (C6), V/G (C5) and V/W (C11) and I the Black wire will be the ground so the missing wire must be the data link?

I dont even know what the data link is or does lol.

I expect this is because the engine (and its wires) and ecm come from different cars.

But back to C16 and the electric load business but as the car doesn't have lights, heater or rear window bat the moment I guess that can wait.

TechSupport · Guru

Yes the copper trace is part of the PCB design. The permanent power (battery backup) is necessary to maintain the memory in the processor. The ECU keeps a lot of information including fuel trims and fault codes unless the battery is disconnected or they are cleared by a scan tool.

TechSupport · Guru

That's a large part of it, electronic components also have a 'leakage current' that would increase the current draw on the battery so they need to be isolated. There are also safety implications because the ECU has a permanent connection to battery, the back up supply has a thin copper trace which will blow if a short circuit develops, isolating the fault.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Thanks for the reply.

I was thinking today and have realised something, it was confusing me why everything seemed to be done with relays but then it clicked and became clear! The ECM is turning everything on and off but it is essentially just computer type surface mounted electronics and hence if any real current was drawn through it the components would burn out. So that I guess is why everything eg. the fuel pump and rad fan are operated via relays. So it also turns itself on and off via a relay depending on the state of the ignition switch.

I am starting to get it (maybe?)

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

So that "thin copper trace" is inside the ECU then I guess. Just out of interest why exactly does the ecu need a permanent connection to the battery?

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Wednesday 19th of June 2013 06:48:26 PM

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Wednesday 19th of June 2013 07:31:36 PM

TechSupport · Guru

Sorry, yes I did mean A3, I've corrected that now.

The main relay is controlled by the ECU, the ECU with the ignition off is in a low power 'sleep' mode to minimise the current drae on the battery. When you turn on the ignition (ON) the IGS (Ignition Switch) sense wire goes to 12V and this 'wakes up' the ECU. The ECU then energises the main relay which turns on the power to the ECU's sensors and the actuators (Injectors, EGR etc..); other circuitry internal to the ECU is also turned on. The main relay is switched by the ECU on the ground side so (b) is effectively disconnected unless the ECU wants the relay on. The relay contacts are Normally Open so (f) is not live unless the ECU has grounded (b)

The immo wakes up and sends out the key code when the main relay turns on so the power must come up in the right order as the ECU won't be listening for the message until after the main relay is energised, if it doesn't receive a message within a defined period it gives up after a short period and flags a serial link failure leaving the vehicle immobilised.

-- Edited by Rhinoman on Wednesday 19th of June 2013 10:41:22 AM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Ok I guess in your last post that you mean A3 when you said A5. Also at the risk of sounding ignorant can you clue me in as to what the "main relay" is and does? I understand what a relay switch is. but from the diagram it looks like that when wire (a) is live then wires (b,c and f) then also become live. I dont understand the point of the relay, why not just join the wires?

What I do understand is that the ignition switch has 4 positions Lock/off, ACC, ON and Start. I would be greatfull if you could clarify at which of these positions pins A3 and A4 are live?

oh I just got it when the ecu makes wire (b) go to ground then the relay activates and wires (c) and (f) become live!

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I found the pinout in the manual...

I guess i can just ignore A5? and am i right in thinking A3 is live and A4 is live when the ignition is on?

TechSupport · Guru

I just had a replacement key made for someone else, Timpsons in Chippenham charged me £35. The wiring diagram should be in the FSM in the immobiliser section. Of the top of my head, there is one wire for the backup 12V and another for the ign on supply, on the ECU I think its white for permanent live and black/white for ign, then there is one wire for gnd, one wire to ECU (diagnostic/serial link) and one wire for the monitor terminal (diagnostics), two wires for the antenna. There are a few spare pins.

TechSupport · Guru

Its a good idea to wire in pin 5 in case you have a problem with the immo. I was slightly wrong in my previous post A4 comes on with the ignition and A3 comes on with the main relay, it is important that the power comes up in the correct sequence as the immo can get confused otherwise. When you turn on the key, the ECU wakes up and the immo is powered up, then the ECU turns on the main relay and the immo wakes up.

-- Edited by Rhinoman on Wednesday 19th of June 2013 10:21:23 AM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Today the ECU, immobiliser and ignition barrel arrived...

and right of the bat I have some new problems/questions lol The key it seems will not release from the barrel and so I cant and wont be using it in its conventional way. I will set the key up behind the dashboard with the immo's aerialclose enough to make it work, which is fine. I would however like to remove the unnecessary weight of the barrel itself so I wanted to ask/check that what I will need is a)the key (somehow removed?) and b) the immo's aerial to read it. Is it just this black plastic looking ring with the red and blue wires I need?

Furthermore I am aware that into the immo must go the aerial (2 wires) and a data wire running to the ECU (1 wire) and I guess it maybe wants power (+ve 1 wire and ground 1 wire) making 5 connections, the immo seems to have 10 whats the deal there? lol

As always any help or guidance will be gratefully received.

One last thing does anyone know where exactly in the key its chip is located? I only ask because the simplest way to get the key out of its barrel would be to cut the black plastic bit off (provided the chip is in it). But if the chip is in the metal protruding part that would be no good so thats why I ask.

EDIT: ok all the key needed was 10 minuets of fiddling with and now it works!

So that bring me on to another question, if I now end up using the key as "the" key for starting the car etc. I then run into the problem that were it ever to be misplaced my car would become useless. Is there any way that a spare key could be copied from the one I have?

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Tuesday 18th of June 2013 03:14:01 PM

TechSupport · Guru

I still watching with interest.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Over the last few days I have made little progress with all the wiring but have decide at least on how I am going to proceed. Firstly to the best of my understanding the majority of the ECU's various inputs and outputs have been identified, there are 1 or 2 things to sort but that can wait for now, secondly the remaining engine connections and the connections to the battery, fuses and relays are all a bit of a confusing mess! So I'm going through it all staring with the ignition switch and various power supply's. A lot of bits I will be making from scratch, like the push button start!

I already have 100's of questions, but am now working through the wiring bit by bit, if I get truly stuck and cant find the answer I will post my questions here.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

Having got my brain working again am I correct in understanding that the O2 sensor has a heater (who's +ve and -Ve contacts are reversible) and they we think are the two black wires on the sensor itself, one of which connects to B1 and the other needs to go to earth somewhere. That leaves two wires a blue and a white, the blue you say is the output so that will go to B12 and the last one the white will again go to earth? I just wanted to double check this. And for now I will leave the "electric load" alone, at a later date if I run out of problems I will look at it then. Lastly I have two contacts going to the ignition switch, one when the car is on(or cranking) and one only when the engine is cranking, and that will about do it for now?

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

I think I would find a complete wiring diagram for the car helpful. I am not sure at the moment if the loom is earthed properly there were a couple of wires that I reattached under the injector to the engine block and I am thinking they were earths, I guess then the engine will need something in the way of an earth tie running to the body and back to the battery -ve?

I am finding the conceptual, complex and unambiguous nature of wiring rather hard work, by the time I have checked that what I am going to do is right I have forgotten why I wanted to do it in the first place, and then when I have remembered that I then have to re-check it coz I dont know what I came up with last time. (if I had a short term memory I would be dangerous). I can just about make myself concentrate hard enough to make it work but it is much more exhausting than it should be and so I dont get much done before I have to stop!

I was having a look at my ignition switch/barrel today and discovered that it is in fact knackered! no matter where you turned the key no two wires were ever joined. So I have scrapped the key plan all together and now plan to have switches and a big START button lol it is a bit cheesy I know but I am doing it to solve a problem not to be cool :) This way the immobiliser is then a usefull part of the car!

-- Edited by Phatwiji on Thursday 30th of May 2013 09:03:26 PM

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

how exactly will I need to wire up my reed switch/vss? It has 2 contacts does 1 go to C1 and the other to earth?

fordem · Senior Member

When the engine is at idle, if an electrical load is switched on, the increased alternator load MAY cause the idle rpm to drop - it's normal to have the lights, blower fan, radiator fan & rear screen heater wired to that input through a diode array (for isolation purposes) - as Rhino says, ignore it for now - we can tell you how to wire it up later.

TechSupport · Guru

Unfortunately there isn't a standard for the O2 wiring, with those colours its most likely to be a Denso sensor so the two blacks will be the heater. the blue the O2 output and the white the sensor ground. You should be able to measure some resistance between the two blacks, it should be specified in the FSM.

Phatwiji · Veteran Member

ok how will I know the O2 sensors output wire? the sensor itself has 4 wires 2 of them black 1 blue and 1 white, the white is B1 so that leaves 2 blacks and a white one of which (as far as I can tell) is meant to go to to pin B12 but which one? Is it the white and both the blacks are earth? I can test that I guess.